023: Hélène Drummond's Inspiring Story of Leaving Her Jobs as Surgeon and Medical Director to Become an Author and Live Her Best Life

Hi, my name is Katy Blommer and my passion is helping women learn how to put themselves first, I learned all the tools for success on my own 12 year journey that has led me to finally figuring out how to live my best life. My journey included overcoming body image issues, and yo yo dieting, climbing the corporate ladder to a multiple six figure career, navigating mom guilt through a 60 hour workweek turning around marriage issues, and much more. Now, I'm truly living my best life. And I've pretty much become obsessed with teaching others my tried and true methods for creating balance, maintaining healthy habits, improving your relationship, career development, and how to stop tying your value and worth, to the way you look and how you serve others. I'm so passionate about helping others learn this, that I created the working mom happiness method to help you get there too. So if you're ready to learn how to live your best life, pull up a chair or put on your walking shoes and get ready to dive in. This is the working mom happiness method podcast.

All right, welcome to today's episode, I am so excited because I have a very special guest. Her name is Elaine Drummond. And I met Elaine through her husband who I work with, I had a meeting with him and I shared a little bit about my own burnout story and how I took a break from working for a while and he said, wow, my wife went through something similar, you should meet her and we met. And I heard her story. And it was the most captivating and inspiring story. And I asked her if she would come on the podcast and share it with all of us. And she so graciously agreed. So Elaine is here today. So welcome to the podcast. And thank you so much for being here.

Thank you very much, Katy, thank you for inviting

me. And I want to just just give a little tiny high level of why your story was so inspiring and who you are. And then I'm going to have you tell your story, of course, so the listeners can hear it firsthand. But Elaine, is from Belgium, and had some very what I consider to be just these big, massive, successful jobs in her life, what society defines as successful, right. And she worked so hard to get there and had the courage to step away when it was what needed to happen for her in her life and to take care of herself in the right way. And I don't want to steal your thunder. So I don't want to go into too much more detail than that. But why don't we just start out with you sharing some of your story as it relates to that. And we'll just jump right in. Does that sound okay?

Yes, perfect. All right. So let's start with the beginning. I'm a physician. And when I finished med school, I had to face a first dilemma. Because I loved surgery, I really loved the operating room. And I thought really, this is something for me. However, I could see very clearly that surgery was a very, very hard job, which didn't allow much space for anything else outside the hospital. And it was complicated to have a life. And it fought unfortunately, there were very few women who were senior surgeons, you know, when I was ending med school. And so it really made me think, what do I want? Do I really have a role model here. And the problem also was that these few women, not only they were not a lot of them, but also they were all single. And they didn't seem to really have a life outside the hospital. And I had just met my husband and I knew I wanted a family. I wanted to live outside the hospital. And so I thought, Okay, I'm going to try to explore other possibilities. And I decided eventually to go for a field that would allow me to still have some surgery, but not only surgery and have a better balanced life. And I went for end. So a nose and throat which is also I mean that there is a big cloud of surgery, but not only. And so that's how I ended up specializing in EMG. And I worked for a few years in a hospital. So in Belgium, I'm from Belgium, so we were living in Belgium then. And I worked for a few years then we had the opportunity to go and live abroad to Singapore for my husband's career. And my husband and I have always been totally aligned on the fact that we wanted to travel and discover the world as any if there would be any opportunity to go live abroad. We would take it to a really, really a night on that and so I was very happy and excited. We went to live for a year In Singapore, so I decided to take a break a one year break. And we were very lucky because we had our first son, who was just a newborn when we left. And so I was extremely fortunate to be able to take care of my son for a whole year without working. And I was really happy and grateful for that to this day. And really, I cherish these memories. And when I was in Singapore, I actually got to meet other physicians like me, but who were not working in hospital, who are working in the pharma industry who had a corporate career. And I thought, Oh, well, that's interesting. So I got to really discuss with them and really think maybe that's something I would like to try, you know. And when we came back to Belgium, after a year, I decided to leave the hospital and really do this first career change and to go for a job in the pharma industry, because I thought that at the time, and at that point in my life, that would be a better fit for me. So I started to work as a junior medical manager in a pharma company, in the breast cancer area. And I liked the job. And I worked in film industry in Belgium for several years, many years. And and, you know, with time, I got to get more senior got to get more responsibility. And I was hired by another company, in which I worked not only in the oncology field, but also in mythology. And I mean, it was really a nice job. I really love the content of the job, I liked the work environment, which was extremely stimulating, energizing, I like my colleagues, it was, it was really a great environment. And I really loved that job until the point because then

I started to have to travel more and more. And I started to feel anxious, because at the time, we had two young kids, my second son was a baby. And it was complicated to handle because my husband had to travel a lot for his career. And even if I really did, like, a lot, my job and what I was doing on a day to day basis, and it was extremely stimulating and gratifying, I got to get extremely anxious because of the logistics, because of the practical aspect of of things. You know, I was asked to take more and more responsibilities, which was great. And, and about the traveling piece that usually comes along with it. That was, that was complicated to me, you know, because maybe one thing I should say is that having a full time nanny in Belgium, is just it doesn't, it doesn't exist. I mean, people don't have full time nannies, it's just not a thing. And even even if it would have been a thing. I mean, that's something we we wouldn't have, we wouldn't have liked anyways, people rely a lot on their parents, so many grandparents actually take care of young kids. But my both my mother and my mother in law, were still working full time. And they were not living in the same city. So it was really complicated from from a logistic logistical point of view. And, but we manage, you know, because you manage, you know, when you don't have a choice, right, united. And then time went by, and I got to really, I got to really get more and more responsibilities. And it was fantastic, because clearly the management of that company believed me and pushed me into a more senior role and asked me to take more and more leadership. And it was extremely gratifying. And it was a fabulous validation, you know, and I love the fact that my job was being recognized and rewarded. But on the other hand, I felt I was caught in this dynamic where I couldn't, I wasn't in control anymore. And I really hated that. Because it was extremely hard for me to say no, and it still is. Yeah, this is hard, but it's complicated to say no. And what do you say to your, your boss when clearly this person believes in you and supports you and and wants to push you and wants to, to make you climb higher and higher? You just don't say no, thank you, you know, it's hard, right? But clearly, right. It's so so I was really torn. And I could see that it wouldn't be okay because I felt okay, so the more and more I climb the more and more I travel the the less and less I'm present at home and for my kids and I started to really suffer about that. That was not okay, I was really torn and I felt I was losing control. And at that point, you know, On Life, My husband had another opportunity to go abroad for his career. And I thought, Oh my God, that's perfect. That's perfect. Because, you know, I didn't have a solution here, I was caught in this I was really sucked up in this situation where I was gratified, but I was, I was anxious, more and more anxious. And I didn't know how to solve this. And I'm excited, this is going to be a new chapter, we're going to move abroad. And so I left that job. And that's when we actually moved to the US to New York City where we still live now. And so off, we went to New York. And at the, of course, initially, I wasn't working here, because I didn't even have a work visa, right. So it takes months. And so I took care of the children we adjusted, it's a big adjustment, obviously, you know, for me, for my husband for for the kids. But we really quickly like the night in New York, however, quite,

quite quickly, too. I was missing something because I was feeling that I really needed to get back to the workplace, I really need to get back to a job to feel that I was something and something I might mention, too, is that from where I'm from where I come from, in Belgium, and in Europe, being a stay at home mom is perceived as something extremely negative, it's being perceived as something being boring, not interesting. And completely in opposition, in contrast with the idea of a strong, smart, independent women, you know, and it's, it's really something that doesn't happen. I mean, in Belgium, everybody work, and certainly also is because most of people couldn't afford not to work. But even those people who could afford not to work, they still do have a job it's staying at home is never something that you will do by choice because of this really bad perception. And the few people who stay at home are really isolated and marginalized. And so I was culturally conditioned to really hate being a stay at home mom or feeling that it wasn't good enough, or failing that, that means that I'm nothing them, you know, and so listen, I really struggled with that, even though I must say and be fully honest, I loved being able to really take care of my kids so much because it never happened except the one year in Singapore when my first son was was a tiny baby, but then it never happened anymore. And so I was

can we can we pause there for one minute, I really just want to pause there and touch on that before you continue your story. Because isn't it so interesting? The way that mom guilt, right? We have this her mom guilt, yes manifests in different parts of in different countries, different parts, even in the United States, different parts in the United States, you get different pressures. And when you when you share this with me originally, when we spoke, I had no idea that this was the culture in Belgium was it was more frowned upon to be a stay at home mom. Whereas in my culture in my state in Utah, where I live, it's more frowned upon to to work outside of the home, you're encouraged to be a stay at home mom. And it just sort of it goes right along with this stigma that we're all facing. It's it's almost like from society perspective, we can't win whatever we do. Wrong. It's sort of good boy. Yeah, that's right. So I just wanted to kind of call that out. And I found that so interesting when you shared it the first time, but continue on, because I'm so excited here.

That's a very good point. And it's so interesting, right? And as you say, it's hard to win. Because no matter what, no matter where we are, it's a challenge.

We have to do what we want. We're not going to win either way. We have to really, truly do what we want, which is a part of what's coming in your story. Some Yes.

But I mean, to be fair, there's something maybe I should mention, too, about the work culture in Belgium is that it is extremely common to have a very loose career that is gratifying and really nice career with decent schedules with no traveling. And with all kinds of of accommodations, let's say if I might use this word around. The motherhood, for example, is not a question where you have several months of maternity leave from three to six to even longer, right moms. You when you have young kids, it's extremely common, extremely frequent to work part time to be able to take care of your young kids. Okay, and it's completely incorporated in the work culture. So, here when I arrived in New York City, I realized that it's like, very polarized, it's like, women either have to choose to have a family and to take care of their family or to have a career. Because here, the careers are really high paying extremely demanding jobs, which require a lot of traveling, which require Squeezy schedules. And so I thought, Oh, wow, this is really different. So you see, it's important to put everything into perspective, too, because I think that they are the work culture. And the workplace is very, very different for women, from what I experienced in Belgium, compared to what I could observe and experience here in New York City, but anyway,

that makes sense. I'm so glad you made that point it and I'm sure that contributes to the path you went down with your role in New York. Yes,

yes. But so

we arrived in New York, I didn't get a work visa, I started after a few months to feel like I was missing something. And I needed to get back to, to the workplace and a job. And, you know, I did some volunteering. But still, I really wanted a job to feel like, you know, I'm somebody again, which is wrong, right? It's so wrong to feel that way. But that's how I felt at the time. And so I got my work visa, and I was hired in a very big pharma company here in the US in New York. And I started to work as a medical director in, in medical research, in clinical research in this big pharma. So it was a very prestigious job. I mean, I was overseeing clinical trials, all over the world in immuno oncology. So I was working with you for the headquarters global headquarters of this company. So it was really a solid, prestigious job,

I just can't even imagine how just how much pressure is on that role, the medical director of a big pharmaceutical company in New York City, I mean, it's just, it doesn't get much more demanding than that, I would imagine.

We were several medical directors, I wasn't the only one. So but still, of course, it's there was a lot of pressure and is, you know, we all put an additional layer of pressure on our shoulders always. So indeed, it was stressful. But I must say that the content of the job again, was extremely stimulating. Intellectually, it was so interesting. I learned many, many things. And I felt Wow, this is great. You know, I'm I'm, this is a great new chapter in my career, I love this. But very, very quickly, again, I got caught in this dynamic, where people really would praise me for my work and be very happy with me and started to really push me in a path, you know, to climb higher and higher and higher and get more and more responsibilities. And again, it was hard for me to say no, there was less traveling involved, I must say, contrary, intuitively, that was not that much traveling. But still, it was very demanding. And I could see that I was less and less present at home for my kids. And I hated that, because I started to feel I was losing control again, on my day to day. But I mean, it went on, and it came to a point where I got extremely stressed and anxious, because at some point, not only I got more and more responsibilities, and few traveling here and there, but what happened is that I was asked to take on the role of another person who had left. And in addition to my own role, of course, and it was supposed to be temporary, you know, until they would find someone else to replace that person who left. And I didn't say no. And obviously, it lasted for months. Yes. And I think that it really threw me in to the edge of a burnout situation. I mean, it's it. I got caught in a spiral. And it got worse. Week after week. It was getting worse and worse because I had my own job and everything that was required for my own job and this other role, which was also a very demanding role with lots of response. stabilities and lots of pressure. And at that point, my husband started to get worried about me. I mean, I was working every single day past midnight, I wasn't sleeping properly, I wasn't eating properly anymore. I was constantly thinking about my job, constantly anxious, constantly stressed. And you don't realize it because it's gradual, you know, and you really, you really fall into this, this trap, and you just go on and you continue. And I remember my husband was was started to be really worried, you know, what's going on? This is not okay, maybe, maybe, you know, we should, you should you should stop, you should leave this is this is not good anymore. You know, this is unhealthy. You know, he could see I wasn't I wasn't being one anymore. And what happened then is that my youngest son started to have some health issues that are resolved now. But that needed at the time, that really required me to be more present and more hands on, on what was on at home. And I think that I can say now that is literally what saved me from a clear burnout situation. Because at that moment I left, I took the decision to leave. And thanks God, I did, because honestly, since then, I really could focus on my son, and on my kids and my family and on myself. I focused on what I wanted and what I didn't want, of course, it took time, it's a process. But I'm much happier. Now. I never went back to the corporate world, I really left that and I'm I, I don't miss it. I don't really want to get back to it. Because what I do now, and again, it took several months of adjustment is that i right? So writing is a passion for me. I always loved reading and writing and writing a book has always been at the back of my head since I'm a teenager. And writing and reading is really a huge part of who I am. And so

again, after a few months, I settled down in this new life. And I thought, you know, why wouldn't I try? Let's give it a try. And it took time again. But now a few years later, you know, I'm a novelist, I guess I can say that you always feel like you're a fraud when you say things, but no, I published two books. I'm on the third one, I published a novel and a book of short stories, I write in French, so everything is being published in France. So it's in French, but But I mean, I'm a novelist, and I am so much happier, I have so much more control on my schedule. On my day to day I do something that truly makes me happy. I can take care of my kids whenever I want. I it's much more balanced. And it's really what suits me. And so that's, that's my journey.

It's such an incredible story. And I know you just told it in a few minutes, what took years and years of your life. But I just when I heard it the first time I got chills, I got goosebumps, because I just can't imagine the courage that it took after all those years of schooling that you went through all of that hard work, you know, to get to to become a physician and to become a medical director. And that whole journey you went on, to walk away from that must have been a very big and scary decision. And I know that you mentioned how hard it is to say no, that's one thing that you and I have in common. And I'm sure, probably 90 plus percent of our listeners have in common we really struggle with that, especially as women and mothers because society teaches us to place our value and our worth on pleasing all of those around us saying yes, and helping all of those around us. So that really resonated with me as well, that part of your story. So we're one thing that's jumping out for me and your story is when you left your role the first time it was because you were moving, you're your husband had this job and you were gonna and so you had kind of that reason. And then when you left the second time your your son was having some health issues. So you had you had these sort of easy eat, they're not easy, but how they made it a little easier.

Absolutely. Right. Absolutely.

And I just wondering, do you think you would have left have had your son not how had health issues or would it have? Would you have gone into burnout? Do you I'm curious to kind of hear that thought process?

That's a good question. No, I wouldn't have left. I wouldn't have left with But I would have been forced to leave because at some point it would have, it would have become too bad of a situation. And I would have been completely burnt out. And I'm pretty sure about that. Because I really had lost complete control, and it was getting worse and worse. So no, I would not have left if I didn't have my son who needed me at that point in our life.

But yeah, it's it's so interesting how we as women, tend to do that, where we'll, we'll put ourselves in harm's way from a health perspective, trying to take care of everyone else. And we will take ourselves out of that position, if it's for someone else, if we're doing it for someone else, your husband was moving your son had health issues, right. But the decision to just do it for ourselves such a hard decision. And I think you're spot on what you said is so important about you would have eventually had to leave because it would have impacted your your health in the way you were living. And I think so so many of us actually do wait until we have the health scare or the wake up call to make the change. And so it's amazing that you were able to do it before then. But I'm just wondering, from your perspective, why do you think that happens? Why do you think we as women, we have to have we have to do it for someone else versus do it for ourselves?

Well, I think that we are raised and conditioned to, to push ourselves and to really go above and beyond and to be strong and never to quit, because that's considered weak, you know? And to really go go go until you collapse, basically. But of course, you don't think that when you say no, I have to be strong, that's okay, that's going to get better, I have to take on more. Because I think we are conditioned and raised. In a way we've all seen of mothers going above and beyond to. So I think that's a part of that, certainly. And at some point, and it's a very good point to when you say the first time, it's because you thought okay, my husband has this great opportunity. Of course, I'm gonna I'm not going to prevent him. And again, it was easy, because I love traveling to I love the idea to come to New York. But indeed, there was a part of me thinking, I will never prevent him from, you know, going for it, this is a fantastic opportunity. So that would have been very interesting if I had had, you know, this job that I really loved. And I wouldn't have been anxious because I wouldn't have to travel I don't know. But I think that probably I still would have left because we don't want to, we want the happiness of the people we care and we love around us. But that's also that part that plays you know, we are also made to really be empathetic and to take care of others more than we take care of ourselves. Because it's considered selfish, because again, our mothers spent so much time taking care of others and not really themselves. So I think it's coming from there. And quite frankly, you know, of course, I didn't think about it that way at the time. But I think that in my mind leaving because I was being so unhappy, so incredibly unhappy. In that job. I would have felt it was selfish and weak. However, as soon as it became for my kid who needed me to be more present, it would have been selfish not to leave. Sure. You know. And so it's all about our approach of how we treat ourselves, how we treat others, and how we are really made and conditioned to push ourselves, which is not a bad thing in itself, because that's what you know, gives us a drive. Yeah, and, and managed to achieve everything we do. As long as it's not unhealthy and crippling.

Exactly, exactly. I completely agree with you. There's there are a lot of positives to that drive as well. It's, I think what we really need to work on and this is what my working mom happiness Method program is all about. So for those listeners who have started at the beginning, really the main focus is learning that our value and our worth is innate. It's not because of our performance at work or how we're a mom or how we serve those around us. It's innate and I think the most powerful and successful and happy women are the ones who can learn to understand our value and our worth Is is innate, and use that drive to then do what our passion is right not to be doing something because we're worried to let somebody down or that we think we might be selfish, but we're sort of combining those two things. And it's not easy. It's, it's the hardest thing to reprogram that subconscious mind into into feeling that way and valuing ourselves and, and you're there and you've done it. And that's why I just like I said, you're just you're so inspiring and your story is so inspiring. So I want to touch on that value and worth thing a little bit more in a minute. But I want to call out one more thing that I'm hoping you're okay sharing with our listeners with my listeners is, when when you were telling me your story, you had mentioned that after you left the corporate job, and you started writing, you found yourself in this space where you, you were it was hard to balance taking the time to write with the kids. And I and you were needing help, but you're feeling a little bit of guilt about getting help, because you're just starting out in this writing process. And I imagine you weren't making money on it yet. And so can you tell us a little bit about that, and the guilt that came along with that, and how you overcame it?

A lot of guilt. I mean, so yes, as you say, it was the very beginning, I just started to ride and trying to find a work routine, and I didn't earn any money, and the idea to get help, and to, to hire and pay someone to get help. It was totally, I thought, Oh, my God, this is out of the question, you know, why, you know, why would I didn't feel legitimate, and, and, and worth being held and having to pay someone for help, because again, I wasn't finding any money with what I was doing at the time and, and also being held, regardless of any other consideration. Again, it's something that is hard for us, because we tend to do everything ourselves. Right. So it's already a first step. But anyway, so yes, that was I felt extremely guilty about that. And I didn't think about it, I did, I rejected the idea. And so what happened is that my husband, who has always been incredibly supportive to me, but you know, if if you want to really go for it and commit to a, to become a writer, I mean, it's a job, and therefore you can adjust right in the morning until you go pick up the kids. And then right after they're in bed at night and not sleep at night, I mean, he told me, you have to organize your schedule to be able, like, like a job because it is a job, you need to give yourself the opportunity to really take it as a job and therefore you need help otherwise, you're never going to be able to manage. And I also met a best selling author, a French novelist that I really admire. And I got to meet her a few times. And she mentored me a bit at the beginning. And, and she told me the same thing. She told me, you know, and then you really have to give yourself the space, the mental space, but also the time in order to be able to write and she told me that she was absolutely convinced that if she hadn't had her nanny, when her kids were young, she would never have been able to write her books and to have the career she's had. And she told me, it is really critical that if you're serious about this, I mean, it's a job. So consider it like a like a job. And it doesn't matter if you don't earn money from it, you know, you need to be able to write and to work, because writing requires a huge mental space and time to and it's true. And so I was very lucky to have very supportive people around me. And so I hired a babysitter, not every day, a few a few afternoons per week, and it made a big difference.

Yes, it's, this is so incredibly common and and not everybody is trying to write a book and not everybody can hire a full time nanny and not not that yours wasn't full time, but not everybody's husband is so supportive. And so what I want if you're listening to this, what I want you to think about is where can you ask for help to support whatever it is you need help with in small ways and and maybe it's not even that you're paying somebody maybe you're asking a relative or a friend or somebody for help. You don't dare to do it because you don't want to burden that person or you're gonna feel guilty about asking for help in general, to your point we just sometimes we just feel bad when we need help. We think we should be able to do it all and it's very vulnerable to say no, I need help. But I need a break. Even if it's just an hour, three times a week that you ask a friend to help or a neighbor to help, I think those can be really difficult things for us to ask for. But we are worth it. We're worth getting up the courage to ask for that help. And that's, it was just another moment when you shared it with me because I had that happens to me too. When I left my, my job, and I started this business and I wasn't making money yet. I same thing, I felt guilty about spending money on anything to do with the business or having help around my house, that sort of thing. I, I really was very, I felt very guilty about that, too. So it's, I understand that you, I mean, you and I, we understand we are in a privileged situation where we had husbands with jobs that allowed us absolutely not everybody's in that situation. And that's okay. But even if you're not in a situation where you if you're single, or you don't have that type of support, there are small ways that you can ask for help, that really can change your life. And I think this is just like such an important message here.

I fully agree life changing. Yeah,

I love that. So thank you for sharing that. Okay, so I want to shift over back to what we were talking about before with how we get our value and our worth sort of tied up in serving others and helping others. So as you left the corporate role, and started really putting yourself first, going through the process of overcoming the guilt, and hiring the nanny, all these things. Good, walk us through the process, walk us through your process of starting to really realize that it was okay that you were doing this and that you didn't have to go back to that corporate job and that you could still be valuable and worthy in society, in this sort of less traditional role of being an author walk us kind of through that journey. And how long did it take you to unravel that value in that worth?

So long process, yes.

I would say that

when I started to be able to I hired this babysitter, you know, few afternoons a week. And it really made the whole difference, because I started to really feel efficient and productive. Therefore I was happier. I was proud of myself. And it was actually better. Also, in terms of the mother, I was because I was more fun because I was happier. And I was more connected with my kids. So it had a positive impact all over. And when I published my first book, I guess, then I really started to feel something worse of calling myself a writer and novelist, because I got great feedback. I got lots of people encouraging me, I got great first reviews. And that was a concrete sign that I was doing something that I wasn't nothing. And then you know, I was doing something was Yes. Interesting people. But But I mean, it still happens now that I would feel not legitimate. And I will say oh my god, what am I because right you write you write a book and get published? And then you you you have a nice reviews. And then second one. But but it's it's an ongoing process. And there's always in the cycle of time, where are you in between? And then you doubt about yourself, Oh, my God, am I going to be able to write something good again, you know, you and you're on your own? I mean, you don't have colleagues you don't have? Yes, you have your publisher, but I mean, it's it's completely different work dynamic, right?

You don't have a boss on a weekly monthly basis, telling them how you're doing or giving you praise or anything. Yeah.

So you have to have the strength and the confidence to really end the discipline. Yes. And that is fine, but to your point are really feeling that you don't need a traditional job to feel like you're something and that your identity isn't related to that job, but but we should be more identity is who we are not what we do, basically. And that's a really long process. And I must say takes a lot of it takes a lot of self acceptance and self confidence and self kindness. Yes. And in my case, it also took a lot of support again, from my husband from my family, from people around me who really truly loved me and cared about me and supported me Because I think it's incredibly hard to get there on your own. Yes, but again, I mean, it's, it's, it's a learning, it's a lifelong learning. Also, what I can see clearly is that the writing itself is helping me for that, because it's very unique, it's completely different to any kind of other jobs I've done in the past, because my writing my books is really me, you know, it's really who I am. So in my case, what I do and who I am, is so interested. And I'm so very proud of my books. And it's a way it's very therapeutic. Also writing because you discover who you are, and, and you heal in many, many ways. And being proud of your books and of your writing is kind of being proud of who you are, you know. And obviously, when I was achieving, you know, great things, or when I was doing surgery, or whether I was helping people in the hospital, I was also very proud. And of course, it was me. But what I'm trying to say is that my books are really, completely me, they are parts of me, you know, and therefore, I think it's very therapeutic, because it helped me really, truly, deeply understand that I can be proud of who I am, rather than what I do you see what I mean? And also Katie, you know, writing makes me so happy. Yes. And this is a life that is so much more balanced. I'm happier, has a mother has an individual and therefore, it kind of became obvious that yes, it's the right thing to do. Yeah.

It's your passion isn't your question? Yes, you answered it. And so much more there are so many of the things that I want to I want to point out in there, you found your passion. And one of the things that we focus on in this program is knowing how you want to spend your time knowing how we call them our values, but what we mean is where do you value spending your time. And that's a big part of this. And you You found the thing where you really want to spend your time and you made it happen, you're spending a lot of your time there, which is why I can just feel your passion. And it's amazing. And, and I think what's important, the important message for anyone who's listening to this is you don't have to quit your job to bring some of your passion. And if you're in a non financial situation, where if you can't quit your job right now, that's okay. If your passion is writing, or whatever your passion is, find some time ask for help get support, because as you said, Elaine, you can't do it yourself. You need help, you need support, and you're worth asking for it. So ask for some help and support whether it's from your husband or from a friend, neighbor, just to do time to have your passion. And I think so many of us think well, if I'm gonna ask for help, it better be because I gotta go run an errand that I really need to do or have to get on. No, it doesn't. It could be an hour for you to write, if that's your passion, it could be an hour for you to watch the TV show you love for all that matters. It's, we really need to value ourselves enough to do the things we love and create the time in our lives, to do the things that we love. And so I love so much that you said that. And I love so much that you said you relied on the support from those around you. And even if maybe you don't have the most supportive husband or you're single. There are people in your life who love you, and they're willing to help you. They're willing to help. Yes, I know. I just somebody in my life came to me and said, I'm drowning. Can you please help? I'm a busy person, but I would be so happy to help them. I'm sure you feel the same way. Yes. 100%. It's absolutely okay to ask for help and support. But thank you that was so beautiful. I loved everything about that. So, obviously the point, the moral of this story of your story, the point of your story is not that we all need to quit our jobs, right? That's not That's not the point. The point is that we all have some change we've been putting off, there's something we all have that we've been afraid to do or we're putting off or we know we want. And it could be as small as starting an exercise program, right? Or making a meal plan or going for a promotion at work. Not that small. But it doesn't have to be that you need to leave your job. Maybe you do. Maybe you need to get up the courage to leave your job because it's sucking the life out of you. That couldn't be something going on. But really what this is about is having the courage and valuing yourself enough to make the change that You've been putting off or that you've been afraid up. And so, Elaine, I'm wondering if you can share based on your experience in doing this and making this big scary change? What advice would you give to other moms, women who are thinking about making some kind of change in their life?

Um, I would say that my advice is really to try to be true to yourself. And to try to do the things that you deeply feel are a good fit for you. And not a good fit for what you expect it to do, or will you expect it to be, but really, truly matches? What you want to be and what you want to do? Yes, be really true to that. And as you say, it doesn't have to be so extreme as to change jobs, it can be little steps, but make space for yourself. Yes. So try to listen to what truly makes you happy. What makes you excited? What makes you curious, and try to get there. And and also, I think it's important to say that we change over of life or lifetime, you know, I never regretted the jobs I did in the past, because there was a moment of my life, it was the good fit for me. I mean, I have a very clear, strong scientific side in me. And so my medical jobs and in the pharma industry, were a good fit for me, and I'm very happy I did that, you know, so So what is important to understand is that we change, we, we are in constant evolution, and therefore, sometimes we're on a path. That's just not the right fit for us anymore.

So just be aware of,

Am I still on the right track? Or? Or do I need to adjust? Do I need to make a little shift? How do I make sure that I'm being true to myself, always, but it takes time, it takes time, and it takes a lot of self reflection? To Know yourself? It's not like, obvious from a day to another, right? Yeah,

it's not obvious because I think that we let the pressures of others whether it's our parents and what they wanted us to do with our lives, or our church, or just our society in general, what society pushes, sometimes we don't even know what we want, because we've been so influenced by those around us. And maybe it's our spouse or somebody in our life who really pushed us towards something. And because we loved that person, or we respected that person, we thought this is what I'm supposed to do. And it can almost blind us to what what we want. That's what I love how beautiful you said, what, what you truly want. And absolutely for for so many of us, that takes some real time and soul searching, and paying. I love what you said about paying very close attention to what you're curious about or where, you know, that's how we can start to find our passions, because I think so many of us don't even know what our passions are, because we've been so influenced by others in our lives. Yeah, I love that so much. Thank you. Okay, last question. What is your personal definition of happiness?

That's a great question. That's a really great question and not an easy one. So, okay, I would say that conditioning to my happiness, of course, is the well being of my husband and my children. But if that is guaranteed, I would say that happiness for me would be to be at the right spot at the right place. And as an individual, as a as a mother, meaning I'm being the person I want to be, and I'm being the mother I want to be. And I think that for me, I mean, again, you know, this this happiness, this definition, again, we are in constant evolution. So what might be my definition of happiness now might not have been my definition of happiness 2010 or five or even a year ago, right, but but at this point in my life, I think that what's really key is to feel I have control. I am not a passive passenger, on a train that someone else is driving or like a hamster in this wheel running, not even going why that I really have a grasp and a hand on what I do on my day to day on my schedule, and that I really am in charge. And I think the the choice piece, the active choice piece to me Is is really important. So again, I'm sorry, I'm all over the place. So I don't know I love each and every nation, but I guess the, the active choice and the feeling that you're in control of, of your day to day and, and make sure that you're the person who you want to be the mother you want to be because that's a really important part of who I am, I'm a mother to is extremely, extremely important to me to be to try to be the best mother I can. And so all of

that is so beautiful. What I'm hearing from that is for you, it's creating your best life, it's that you are the one thing you're taking, that you're creating your life versus reacting to something that's letting your life unfold reactively, you're proactively creating what your life looks like, that is so beautiful. And you've done that it's exactly what you've done, you're living your happiness in that you have created this life where you, you're an author, and you've published books, and you're having this time with your family and your kids and you're not working up past midnight every night. And you know, you have the support, you need to take the time writing and spend it with your family. And I just think it's magic. I just that's why I'm so inspired by you. And I cannot thank you enough for taking the time and being so willing to come and share your story. I know that you're going to inspire so many others who are listening to this with the the courageous choice you made to create your happiness. It's it's beautiful. Just before we wrap up, if somebody wants maybe there's somebody who is a French speaker, French reader on the line, I do actually have listeners in Europe, I'm not sure what languages they speak. Is there somewhere they could find your book? Would it be your Instagram or a web? Yeah, where could they find that?

Yeah, yes, of course, I have a website is Ellen drummond.com. I have an Instagram. And my books are available on any kind of online platform. Yes. So my novel is called Laplace, please. And that's my first book. And my second book is, it's a book of short stories. It's called most machines. So great. I do have a website.

I'll link it in the show. Thank you. Yeah, I'll put a link to your website and to your Instagram in the shownotes. And so if anybody is interested in checking out your books they can do. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you so much. Again, this was this has just been great. And I'm really excited for everybody to listen and be inspired. So thank you very much for

You're so welcome, Katie. It's an absolute pleasure. It's an extremely interesting discussion. So thank you for inviting me.

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